Discussion with Ecclesian on God.

G’day Ecclesian

Glad to answer your questions about my ideas.  Still it’s a pity that you weren’t able to respond to my questions about your essay.  Don’t you think my objections are valid?  It’s funny how I get silence from some people when I raise some of those questions and ideas.  Although experience should never be used as a determinant for universal truth some of the most socially and ethically irresponsible people I know are Christians.  On the other hand, some of the most socially and ethically responsible people I know are largely or completely Godless in their lives.  I’ll talk about this more below, as it does reveal some myths that Christians have about atheists and agnostics.  I have included your text with my words in red.  If you think this is a good new starting point, I’ll be happy to go on the journey with you.

Ecclesian: On a different topic - about God.  Lately I have been taking my three oldest children to confirmation classes on a friday night - NOT to make them good Anglicans, but so they can become more informed about the Christian faith for themselves.  They have been asking a lot of deep questions themselves, including the big one itself, whether God even exists or not.  Only one thing though has convinced them that God exists and only that one thing - that is their own consciences, their own sense of right and wrong within themselves.  My children don't seem very impressed by religion, which is good, but they have recognised that hope comes from the fact of a benevolent Creator who has made them to be good, and so the future will also be good - rather than a meaningless heat death of the universe after Billions of years of human extinction. 

 I have also asked them to think about what it would mean, logically, if there was no God. 

Mike: Hhhhmmm!  So do you think you can logic out whether there is a God or not?  It is interesting because most Christians I know say that logic cannot be used.  I, on the other hand think that it should be one of a few tools that we use to determine truth from fiction and even reserved judgement.

Ecclesian:  Without a Creator/Designer, there is only a universe formed out of chaos, no Truth, no reason for our existence, only human will imposed by the powerful.  As an agnostic I don't have a problem with the idea of a creator designer.  It's just who you want to create that creator/designer to be.  Maybe we are just a test tube experiment of a higher life form on another planet.  There's just as much credibility in an idea like that.  Just ask Jill.

Mike:  I thought the Bible said that God created the earth out of a type of chaos?  Darkness and void, empty and deserted?  Many of our political systems have evolved out of chaos.  Often good relationships evolve and grow out of chaos.  That’s been my limited experience.  I’m not even sure that chaos is what people make it out to be.  Absence of order?  Anarchy?  Maybe there has always been some sort of order in the universe.  Maybe order evolves too.

Ecclesian:  With no meaning to this universe, why shouldn't a white man or a black man oppress the other or torture them if it gets them what they want?  With no God, how can we call that wrong?  We can say that harming others is bad, because I feel bad when others harm me - but what concern is that of mine if I can get away with it?  Without some standard of transcendant good, without eternal consequences to our lifes actions, why bother being "good", it is meaninglessness? 

Mike: Who suggests there is no meaning to the universe?  Have I ever said that? 

I have a royal law that, I tend to think, surpasses all laws.  Be selfish, as long as it doesn’t adversely affect others.  Often the oppression that we speak of has been sanctioned and spread under the wing of Christianity.

You don’t need to have a God to have right and wrong.  In fact many societies that don’t have any God have many opinions of right and wrong.  Look at me.  I don’t say that there is no God.  But in the absence of belief either way, I certainly have values, standards, ethics and morals.  Summed up, some would call that right and wrong.  In fact I talk a little about this on my site.

For me and many people I know there is a lot of meaning even if there isn’t a God.  I know that I will live forever, even if it isn’t it my present form.  My cells will provide food for other life and the legacy I leave will live on for many years after me.  That I know.

 Being good is never meaningless, even if you don’t have a God.  Being good provides me, my community and my family with a better world to live in.  It is only meaningless because Christians sell the lie that atheist’s lives are meaningless.

Ecclesian:  As an agnostic, the question for you is "will the real God please stand up!?" I go back to conscience to know this.  What does your moral sense tell you  that God ought to be like?  If we are made in the Image of God, then not only are we like God in some way, but we are aware if it - so what does your sense of morality tell you?  What do you mean by righteousness? Goodness?  Tell me what you would like God to be like - which God would you worship?  Maybe then we might start to get somewhere,

 Mike:  It can’t be reduced to one question.  It’s not so much will the real God stand up, it’s more like is there a real God?  People’s consciences tell them what they want.  Some say no God, others say God.  My moral sense cannot consider what a God may be like because there is no objective proof for this being, or not that I have been shown at least.  What I can do is evaluate the Bible’s version of God and other religions versions of God.  However, if there is a God I would guess that it might be unfair to suggest that any of those religions have it right.

What would I like God to be?  Well I always evaluate those sorts of big questions on a much smaller scale.  For example I would probably reduce it down to what a good father and mother is.  Although that sort of analogy is left wanting because it really doesn’t compare to the various religions versions of God as creator.  I talk a bit about this on my section on God.  I suppose I would want a God that treats people equally, with respect, dignity etc.  I would want a God that does not willingly and knowingly allow other beings to stuff things up.  I would want a God that communicates freely and willingly with all his creatures, not by stealth or codes or through alleged prophets and those with “privileges experiences and revelations”.

Which God would I worship?  Well, there are not too many, if any, of the current versions of God that I feel deserve my worship.  A person, being or entity must be worthy of worship (worth ship).  None of the versions of God that I know of are even a little bit holy.  In fact, most of them resemble and surpass the versions of the devil.  Still if there is a or some gods it or they may not be anything like what people have tried to describe them as.  But then maybe they’re right. 

So I am interested in what you think about my thoughts and questions.  Never think that talking about such matters has to be a win or lose situation.  We can all learn from each other and consider some of the many options.

 Regards

 Mike

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