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So
many people with so many versions of how to be
saved. So who is right?
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| Faith |
So
is faith just another word for blind acceptance?
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False Hope
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Hope
is a great emotion, but when it has heartbreak
at the end, can that be helpful?
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All great religions, in order to escape absurdity, have to admit a dilution
of agnosticism. It is only the savage, whether of the African bush or the
American gospel tent, who pretends to know the will and intent of God exactly
and completely.
H.L. Mencken, Damn! A Book of Calumny, (1918)
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Dialogue with Steph (Oct 2006)
The
interesting thing about this discussion was that Steph did
not respond after promising to. This is not unusual
from my experience. Although the discussion was quite
amicable, it seems when the heat was turned up on a number
of points that she decided that discretion was the better
part of valour. I could be wrong, but if she doesn't
bother to follow up with her reasons we are only left to
speculate.
Maybe
her husband stopped her from responding. I have
encountered this a bit with couples. She does quote
his thoughts a bit throughout the discussion. Its a
pity that she relies so much on his thoughts rather than her
own because she does seem quite intelligent.
Anyway, it is a bit long but have a read and send me your
comments.
I have just read your review of Ravi Zacharias' book ,"Jesus Among Other
Gods." You bring up the objection that the biblical accounts are not
provable, and that the biblical eye witnesses cannot be proven credible.
I highly recommend that you read the book, "The Case for Christ" by Lee
Strobel. He was a former atheist who investigated the claims of the
biblical accounts of Jesus and set out to prove them wrong. He talked to
several biblical scholars who soundly proved the biblical accounts
accurate using reason, history accounts, and statistics. Strobel was so
amazed and convinced at what he discovered, he converted to
Christianity. Please read this book and tell me what you think.
~From a reviewer of your
website,
P.S.
You might also consider Strobel's other books, "The Case for Faith" and
"The Case For The Creator"
G’day Steph
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate
any comments.
I have read the Case for Christ a
couple of times. I did add some comments about the book on the site.
The book is written from a believers
point of view and not a non-believer. I have also heard Strobel and
Meitzler speak on a couple of occassions. I was a Willow Creek
Association member for a number of years and am fairly familiar with
their stuff.
Anyway I’ll have another look and give
you some more comprehensive comments.
Thanks again
Regards
Mike
Did you
happen to come across this...
Christ the
Wisdom and Power of God
18For
the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are
perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power
of God. 19For
it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will
frustrate."[a]
20Where
is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the
philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the
wisdom of the world?
21For since in the wisdom of God the world through
its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the
foolishness of what was preached to save those who
believe. 22Jews
demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23but we preach
Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and
foolishness to Gentiles,
24but to those
whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the
power of God and the wisdom of God.
25For the
foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the
weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
26Brothers,
think of what you were when you were called. Not many of
you were wise by human standards; not many were
influential; not many were of noble birth.
27But God chose
the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God
chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28He chose the
lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the
things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
29so that no
one may boast before him.
30It is because
of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us
wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and
redemption.
I
read your review of Lee Strobel's book and I read your
story. I mean no disrespect, but it seems like you lost
your faith in God maybe due to some area in your life that
you refused to line up with His word. Catherine Marshall
(writer of the "Christy" series and several non-fiction
books about her journey of faith) said that once you obey,
even if you don't understand or it doesn't make sense to
you, understanding will be given to you. Simply put,
obedience comes first, then understanding. I am pretty
sure that Oswald Chambers spoke about this same principle
in one of his devotionals too. When I was reading your
story, Romans chapter 1:18-32 came to mind. It seems to me
that you have embraced Wicca or the principles of Wicca
anyway. When I have read these books by Lee Strobel and
Ravi Zacharias or C.S. Lewis, the truth they presented was
self-evident. When someone refuses to line up any part of
their life with what God says is true, then the opposite
of what I mentioned earlier happens, our understanding is
darkened and we become easily deceived by satan.
I will
leave you with these verses and I will be praying for you
Mike because I do care, and I know that Jesus cares even
more than me, that you have wandered away from Him and His
truth (sometimes hard truth, but truth none the less). ..
24And the
Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind
to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
25Those who
oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God
will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of
the truth, 26and
that they will come to their senses and escape from the
trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his
will. 2 Tim. 4:24-26
19 My dear
brothers and sisters, if someone among you wanders away
from the truth and is brought back,
20 you can be
sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that
person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many
sins. James 5:19-20
P.S.
One of the points you brought up twice was about God not
accepting homosexuality, that "God made them that way." I
wanted to mention that I have had the privilege of hearing
some great teaching on how homosexuality is formed in a
person. Focus on the Family has several resources
explaining how homosexual feelings can be formed within a
person. I have personally heard several testimonies
from individuals who relate how they came to be homosexual
and how God not only delievered them from it, but also
changed their sexual attraction. Exodus International (a
ministry to gays from ex-gays) also explains how
homosexuality is like an addiction (like alcoholism) and
the homosexual initially seeks love from the same sex
because of a lack of love from their same-sex parent. Of
course there are many other factors involved. For
instance, I have read that over 90% of homosexuals were
molested. This does not mean that every person who was
molested will develop homosexual tendencies, but
molestation along with several other factors help to
develop within the person attraction for the same-sex. I
am not speaking from a detached, non-affected,
self-righteous view either. I, myself, was molested along
with several of my family members down through the
generations; and my maternal grandpa is gay and a male
cousin who I was close to as a child is gay.
I
guess I said all that to say this, there are specific
answers and explanations to these issues that you have
allowed to weaken your faith in what God's word says. God
is not the author of confusion (I'm sure that you have
heard that when you were a Christian), but satan is. If
you truly have questions and don't understand something in
God's word, or a part of His word seems too hard, then
usually it is because we have not asked God for
understanding. He says to ask for wisdom, but if He
chooses not to give it, then we should not stop believing
in Him because we don't understand. Also, when we think
that a part of His word is too hard, then usually it is
because we are looking at our own ability and not God's
ability to make that part of the word a reality in our
life or someone else's life. God says in His word, that
the same power that raised Christ from the dead is
available to us to overcome sin in our own lives.
Mike: G’day Steph
Thanks for taking the time to write. It’d be good to know
where you are from and how you came across the site. Most
of the issues you have raised have been covered in the
site, but I will take them up one at a time. If you feel
I have left anything out, please let me know. I am always
open and receptive to what people have to say.
First and foremost, it is difficult to take many of the
passages from the Bible seriously. Any book that claims
to have “authority” must be able to substantiate that
authority. I wont go over the reasons here, because I
have listed them in the section under the Bible.
Secondly, I wonder what version or message of the cross
you are talking about. The many brands and types of
Christians have different “messages”.
I
thought Jesus was supposed to have said “Love God with
your mind”.
I
feel that many of the words of this Epistle are a bit
naïve and foolish themselves. If some of those words were
taken literally we would have to throw out large portions
of the modern Bible. The Wisdom literature is quite
significant in the Bible. The wise, the scholars and the
philosophers of that age put the Bible together.
Re
Strobel:
I
know from my own experience and many other ex Christians
that Catherine Marshall’s statement is not true. My
Christian journey, over 30 years, was marked by and
inspired by the story of Solomon asking for wisdom. I
was, and still am, constantly searching for understanding.
As
for Wicca I wonder if you might enumerate the principles
of Wicca that you feel I am embracing. I don’t know much
about Wicca personally.
You say that if one refuses to line up their life with
“what God says is true”. How can you know what God says?
Millions claim to “know” what God says. Yet there are so
many different messages. Even from the current version of
the Bible, there are literally hundreds of versions of
salvation. I take that up in the Salvation topic. I know
from my own Christian journey how often the message of God
changed. Every Christian I have ever spoken to claims to
have the “good oil” on what is the truth, yet none claims
to be wrong and yet there are so many different stories.
Do you believe you have the final and correct version of
truth. Maybe you do.
Re
Homosexuals:
I
have been involved with Exodus Ministries in Australia
(also linked to Liberty Ministries) and I think that
anyone who claims to have the answers on how
“homosexuality is formed” is naïve. Every homosexual is
different and there are many reasons why a person is or
becomes homosexual or bisexual. We had yearly Scripture
Union Conferences here in Brisbane. One year I took the
homosexual elective with John Metcalf. John is a genetic
biologist and a confessed homosexual. He explained how he
got married to a beautiful understanding woman. He also
explained how he still looks at men and realised that will
never change. He went on to explain some of the research
he has done in the area of twins. He explained that we
all begin life as females and that at 8 weeks the change
is sometimes made by the introduction of Androgen. This,
in effect, makes a boy. He also went on to talk about how
some men are more feminie than others and the possible
causes.
I
do believe that homosexuality can be nurtured, but to have
that as the only cause, even as John Metcalf stated, is
very narrow. My discussion on Hermaphrodites challenges
many of the preconceived notions.
You may have read that over 90% of homosexuals were
molested but how many homosexuals do you know? It is very
easy to claim to have the low down on these things.
Scientific research on such things shows how information
and theories change. I know that molestation is a factor,
but it should not be given the significance of outlandish
figures of 90%. So what is your source and how reputable
is it?
You say that “there are specific answers and explanations
to these issues that you have allowed to weaken your faith
in what God's word says.” So what does “God’s word” say
and why should anyone accept it as God’s word? Which
version of the historical Bible should I accept? Maybe
the early church version was it, or maybe the Catholic
version with the Apocrypha? Besides, which God’s word is
it? If your version of God is not the author of
confusion, then why is there so much confusion over
Salvation, if it is OK to kill in war etc?
I
have always asked for understanding and that is largely
why I am where I am today. Many people assume incorrectly
why I am an agnostic. It is not true to say I am an
unbeliever. As an Agnostic I am ready to believe if there
is credible information.
Mike:
G’day Steph
I
have made comments under what you posted to me. I was
curious where you are from because I am a world watcher.
Australia is the 2nd most multicultural nation on
earth (per capita) and I always find it interesting
discovering people’s background and culture.
It
is good to have frank discussion. I am pleased to continue
for as long as you can keep it up. I am proud to say that I
have never baked down from hearing and listening to what
people have to say.
Anyway read on for my comments
(I have made them in red to
make it easier to follow).
I
appreciate that you have been polite during our
"discussions." Most people I come across either
quickly shy away or become really defensively angry
when anyone tries to lead them into a discussion about
what they believe about God and His salvation. So, I
really appreciate it when I come across someone who is
willing to really listen and respond politely!
I
experience the same thing from Christians usually.
There are some things that I’m quite firm about. When
I hear Christians in Australia making racist or sexist
statements it gets me fired up. A lot of Christians I
know preach and deal up all sorts of injustice. So in
those areas I am quite firm in my approach. Some
might read it as being rude, but ignorance in those
areas is no excuse.
I don’t think
it really matters where I am from. But, I came across
your website by God’s providence, I think. I was
searching for a quote from Ravi Zacharias to put in
our church bulletin, and your site came up with the
others because you had mentioned him. I read your
review and decided to email you.
I was
pleasantly surprised yesterday morning because right
after I had emailed you about the quote from Catherine
Marshall about understanding about God and His
ways being linked to our obedience to His word, the
devotional I read from Oswald Chambers (My Utmost For
His Highest) and was about this very topic. In fact it
is the exact one that first introduced me to this
concept! I am including it here because I truly
believe it is a "word" for you from God. Because of
the timing (it is for Oct. 10th), I don’t believe that
this is just a coincidence. Here it is:
MATTHEW 11:25:
Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father ...
that You have hidden these things from the wise and
prudent and have revealed them to babes.”
If I take the statement at face value, the statement
seems very unfair. Deliberately hiding something from
someone and then blaming them for not accepting seems
very childish. However, as I said previously, the
words of the Bible have to have some credibility to
begin with.
How Will I Know?
WE
DO NOT GROW INTO a spiritual relationship step by
step—we either have a relationship or we do not. God
does not continue to cleanse us more and more from
sin-“But if we walk in the light,” we are cleansed
“from all sin” (1 John 1:7). It is a matter of
obedience, and once we obey, the relationship is
instantly perfected. But if we turn away from
obedience for even one second, darkness and death are
immediately at work again.
All of God’s revealed
truths are sealed until they are opened to us through
obedience. You will never open them through philosophy
or thinking.
But once you obey, a flash of light comes immediately.
Let God's truth work into you by immersing yourself in
it, not by worrying into it. The only way you can get
to know the truth of God is to stop trying to find out
and by being born again. If you obey God in the first
thing He shows you, then He instantly opens up the
next truth to you. You could read volumes on the work
of the Holy Spirit, when five minutes of total,
uncompromising obedience would make things as clear as
sunlight. Don't say, “I suppose I will understand
these things someday!” You can understand them now.
And it is not study
that brings understanding to you, but obedience.
Even the smallest bit of obedience opens heaven, and
the deepest truths of God immediately become yours.Yet
God will never reveal more truth about Himself to you,
until you have obeyed what you know already. Beware of
becoming one of the “wise and prudent.“ “If anyone
wills to do His will, he shall know ... ” (John 7:17).
So
what happened to me? My obedience was never under
question. Every aspect of my life was pointed to
obedience and glorifying the God I believed in. Even
today my life would put to shame many so called
Christians.
Also, you speak of there being several different
versions of salvation that you have studied about.
Jesus plainly stated in John 14:6, “Jesus said to him,
I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes
to the Father except by (through) Me.”
There are more than several. Every person that has
explained the way of Salvation has come up with a
different recipe. Most would agree with the Scripture
you quote, however the vast difference is in what must
be believed and practiced about Jesus. For example,
is it a necessary ingredient to accept that Jesus is
God? Is it necessary to accept that the Bible is
God’s word? Is it necessary to accept that Jesus was
born of a virgin, raised from the dead, ascended to
heaven etc. Many Hindus would accept the statement
that Jesus is the way the truth and the life but the
recipe for Salvation is far more complicated than
that.
Go
to the Salvation link where I have listed the various
ingredients for Salvation. You might have your own
recipe.
http://users.tpg.com.au/mlsheen/salvation.html
My
husband has a message about this scripture, entitled,
"Is Jesus A Way to Heaven?"
I
often used to say that there were two ways: One
through Jesus, and the other to live a perfect life.
He
points out several verses throughout the bible that
state that lying is a sin. He then reads the scripture
about how the sacrifice for our sin has to be perfect.
The book of Hebrews talks about this in chapters 4-6.
Anyway his main points are these: either Jesus was
lying when he said this, telling the truth, or he was
insane.
We
call this a false trilema. It’s like saying “a frog
can either be blue or brown”. The truth is it could
be green, yellow or many other combinations. There
are of course other options, but I will leave this for
you to think about.
If he was lying,
then he cannot be the sacrifice because he was not
perfectly sinless. And if he was insane, then he would
also have not been telling the truth when he said
this. So, either Jesus was telling the truth and
through him is the only way to heaven, or he is lying
and he cannot be
the
or even
a
way. So he is either the only way, or not a way at
all, but not just another way to heaven. Also,
consider this point: if there is any other way besides
Jesus that we can obtain salvation, then why would
Jesus bother to come from heaven where it is perfect,
and live here in poverty, be beaten unmercifully, and
die a seemingly meaningless death. If there is an
easier way than what Jesus provided, then why would
God bother to sacrifice His only son? A good analogy
would be that of a child needing an organ donation in
order to continue to live. Well, if the doctors knew
that there was an easier way to heal this child, then
they would not think of going ahead and asking someone
to donate an organ. And Jesus did not merely donate,
he gave up everything and sacrificed everything to so
we could be set free from our sinful nature, be
forgiven for our sins, and be with Him and our
Heavenly Father forever, and not only that, but also
inheriting all that is His (Jesus's) in heaven!
Hhmmm! That’s if Jesus really did do that.
You have already read Strobel's book, "The Case For
Christ." But what really stood out to me was how
perfectly Jesus fulfilled every prophecy made about
the messiah in the Old Testament. To refresh your
memory, here is the quote from Strobel's book about
the statistical evidence.
I
have a section on prophecy on my site. The nature of
prophecy is that it usually takes events to be read
back into prophechy. Ask a Jew what the Old Testament
prophecies meant. When Isaiah say the young women
will have a child is reinterpreted and given new
meanings, the virgin will have a child. The original
scripture is rehashed to make it a prophecy when in
fact it was not a prophecy.
1. The Coincidence
Argument
You seem to have missed the point I made that his
arguments are based on assumption. If you create a
story about someone then you can make it do whatever
you like. The question I have is whether any of the
claims of Jesus life can be verified by external
documents.
First, I asked Lapides whether it's possible that
Jesus merely fulfilled the prophecies by accident.
Maybe he's just one of many throughout history who
have coincidentally fit the prophetic fingerprint.
"Not a chance," came his response. "The odds are so
astronomical that they rule that out. Someone did the
math and figured out that the probability of just
eight prophecies being fulfilled is one chance in one
hundred million billion. That number is millions of
times greater than the total number of people who've
ever walked the planet!
"He
calculated that if you took this number of silver
dollars, they would cover the state of Texas to a
depth of two feet. If you marked one silver dollar
among them and then had a blindfolded person wander
the whole state and bend down to pick up one coin,
what would be the odds he'd choose the one that had
been marked?"
With that he answered his own question: "The same odds
that anybody in history could have fulfilled just
eight of the prophecies."
I
had studied this same statistical analysis by
mathematician Peter W. Stoner when I was investigating
the messianic prophecies for myself. Stoner also
computed that the probability of fulfilling
forty-eight prophecies was one chance in a trillion,
trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion,
trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion,
trillion, trillion!4
Our
minds can't comprehend a number that big. This is a
staggering statistic that's equal to the number of
minuscule atoms in a trillion, trillion, trillion,
trillion, billion universes the size of our universe!
"The odds alone say it would be impossible for anyone
to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies," Lapides
concluded. "Yet Jesus-and only Jesus throughout all of
history-managed to do it."
The
words of the apostle Peter popped into my head: "But
the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth
of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He
has thus fulfilled" (Acts 3:18 NASB).
To be quite
frank, Mike, we could discuss this back and forth from
now until we die, but no matter how many good points
or evidence that someone brings up, a person will not
"come to the knowledge of the truth" unless God
reveals the truth to the person.
I’m not sure that anyone has given me any good points
yet. Even so, your version of God seems to be very
unjust. An all loving God would reveal himself to
everyone. But as you know the Bible clearly states
that this is not the case, as you have just quoted.
God,
through His holy spirit,
is the only one that can allow us to see the truth and
understand it. You can search and study all you want
just like Solomon did and still not be able to figure
God out. Do you remember Solomon's conclusion at the
end of his search? If you are truly wanting to know
the absolute truth about life and salvation, then when
you pray and really pour your heart out to God in your
praying, then God will hear you and answer you. He
knows us better than we know ourselves--He created us,
of course He should! He knows if we really want to
know Him or not. I don't know exactly why God had us
cross paths, but I know that it was for a good reason.
Mike you have said that you have read so many books
about truth and salvation (and some books by really
good authors too!), but you still question the truth
that is presented. I don't know why you are doing this
and what led you to turn away from Christianity, but
God knows your heart and if you truly want to know the
truth, He will reveal as much to you as you can stand
(or understand). But, I will be praying for you
earnestly that God will reveal His truth to you.
I
still pray. I have always kept an open mind and been
willing to hear from God. But still there is silence.
I
know
deeply in my heart
and mind the the truth about why I am here (I don't
know the whole plan, but He reveals as much to me as I
need to know, when I need to know--and that is ok) and
that God saved me through my repentence of sin &
acceptance of what Jesus did for me. I cannot prove
this to you or any one else, but I also know that it
was with my heart that I chose to believe, even though
I did not understand a whole lot with my mind. God has
since revealed more and more to me. He is the one who
puts it on our hearts to want to know Him, and the one
who reveals truth to us. We would not ever want to
seek Him on our own; and we would never be able to
find the real truth without Him revealing it to us. I
guess I am rambling now, but I hope that these points
that I have brought up will help you to desire to
really seek Him wholeheartedly and not give up until
you also really know.
It’s a bit like going on a search without knowing what
you’re looking for. But as you say, I can’t know what
I’m looking for unless God shows me. So I suppose I’m
at your version of God’s mercy.
I
think many Christians have a great deal of trouble
understanding the mind of an unbeliever, skeptic,
atheist or agnostic. I’m not asking you to take their
side, but merely to try and see things they way they
look at them. If I can use an example that maybe
close to home: If you are going to start a ministry
to street kids or the elderly or whoever, you have to
approach the ministry from their perspective. Paul of
Tarsus did this, allegedly, when he preached at Mars
Hill. He was called the missionary par excellence to
the Gentiles. Mainly because he reconstructed the
Jewish message and converted it to a Gentile message.
If he started preaching to Gentiles about the
atonement and blood sacrifices they would not
understand him. Instead he used other relevant
analogies.
Hope that helps.
Regards
Mike
Mike: G’day Steph
I
noticed you didn’t comment on our discussion regarding
homosexuality.
I
was curious to hear your reply to my comments on that
point as well.
It’s funny how you said “Most
people I come across either quickly shy away or become
really defensively angry when anyone tries to lead them
into a discussion …” because that has been my personal
experience with many, should I say most Christians. I
know it can be intimidating for Christians without much
knowledge of the Bible and Theology but I think many of
the points are worth considering.
I always encourage
Christians to obey their master and to love him with their
mind. That one often gets left out of the faith
equation.
Anyway, I look
forward to your comments as I’m keen to add the rest of
the discussion to the website.
Regards
Mike
I
have thought some more about the homosexuality issue; and
I read over your comments again. This seems to be a key
issue with you. Is this issue one the main reasons you
started questioning the validity and authority of the
Bible?
You
said, "I
do believe that homosexuality can be nurtured, but to have
that as the only cause, even as John Metcalf stated, is
very narrow."
First, I do believe, from what I have
read and heard from personal testimonies of
ex-homosexuals, that homosexuality is a learned behavior.
Yes, there are many factors that contribute to a person
developing their very real
and strong feelings of
attraction toward the same sex, and this issue is very
complex, but it is learned. And I don't
believe the person just chooses
to feel the way they do, but they can choose
how they respond to those feelings. I want to also
establish two points before I go on though:
-
Sin is sin in God's eyes. He says if you have broken any
part of His law, you might as well have broken all of it.
He does not consider any one sin any greater than another.
Of course different sins have different consequences. For
instance, stealing a candy bar will not have as bad of
consequences as murdering someone. But in both instances,
the person still sinned against God by disobeying Him.
With that in mind, someone who has sex with someone that
they are not married to is sinning just as badly as
someone who has sex with a person of the same sex in God's
eyes.
Mike, I have a close female friend of mine who had
had an intimate relationship with a man she is not married
to for well over a year; and they were having sex. Because
sex is not just a physical act, but also an emotional and
spiritual act as well (having sex joins us physically,
emotionally and spiritually with another--and God created
it to be that way), she developed very strong feelings of
attraction and love for this man. It was very hard for her
to say no to having sex with him because she cared about
him too. But she eventually, was able to break off the
relationship because she knew it was wrong.
-
We
have free will when it comes to sex. So we can be held
accountable for how we choose to exercise that free will.
(For instance, a person may have strong, very real hatred
toward another person, but they can choose whether to kill
or harm them or not.)
God is not going to hold us accountable for feelings
that we cannot help having, but He will hold us
accountable for how we choose to respond to those
feelings.
I have also heard from ex-homosexuals that
homosexuality is like an addicition. You stated that John
Metcalf said that he still had feelings about men even
after he left homosexality and is married and that he
feels he will always have those feelings. Well, just like
alcoholics still have urges to drink even after not having
taken a drink in years, a homosexual can also still have
those urges to give in also, but just like the
alcoholic, they don't have to. I may have
really strong feelings to cheat on my husband with another
man, but I don't have to give into it. I don't believe
that homosexuals are born being homosexual. I have
attended classes on homosexuality to better understand it
since I have two family members who are gay. I have read
up on homosexuality quite a bit; and listened to several
testimonies from ex-homosexuals. In each of these
instances the person admitted that they knew they were not
born gay and then they explained how homosexual feelings
had developed in their lives over time. Focus on the
Family has great resources about homosexuality and
testimonies from ex-homosexuals. One you might be
interested in and can order pretty cheap is, "The Rubbish
In Our Lives" by Mr. David Saint Pierre and I am emailing
you a page from Focus on the Family answering the
questioning about whether homosexuality is inherited.
In reponse to "I do believe that homosexuality can be
nurtured, but to have that as the only cause ... is very
narrow." God says in His word, that the way to eternal
life is narrow, and the way to hell is broad. It says in
His word that He was pleased to offer salvation
through His only son Jesus, because this was the most
loving way. God has the perogative to state how we
are to live...He made us--we did not make ourselves. Just
like a computer programmer develops a program to work a
certain way and that way is the best way, God has created
us and living life His way is the best way--and He should
know. Who are we to tell God that His way is narrow? I
know I am being quite blunt, but I truly believe that
sometimes we cannot skirt around the real issues
underneath all the talk. And I believe the real issue that
you are really bringing up is "I don't believe I have to
obey God if I have strong feelings to do otherwise." We
can intellectualize all we want about something that God
says not to do, but in the end, He still told us, "Don't
do that." When we start intellectualizing over one of His
commandments instead of obeying it, then we are falling
for the same deception that Eve fell for in the garden.
Satan asked her, "Did God say...not to do that?" Well, He
did, but He does provide answers to why He said no, too.
But, I know with my own kids, at first they are not gonna
understand why I tell them not to do certain things
because they are too young to understand at first. I just
expect them to obey first and ask questions later because
I know what is best and they don't. Then later on I will
explain to them the why when they can understand. Anyway,
I hope this helps you see things from a different
perspective.
Mike: G’day
Steph
The first thing I
should say is that we should always be careful to parade
ourselves as authorities over areas we know very little
about. As a student myself I am aware of recent
scientific studies that support the idea that
homosexuality is something some are born with.
I have a problem
with presumptuousness and am suspicious, to say the least,
of someone who claims to have the low down on a subject as
complex as human sexuality, from reading a few books and
hearing a few sermons.
The topic of
homosexuality is one of about 30 key issues with me. If
you look at the topics I cover on the web site you will
see some of the others. Homosexuality comes under a
larger topic of discrimination. Unfortunately I have
witnessed first hand the atrocious treatment Christians
meet out to people who don’t match their own sexual
orientation, ethnic origin and religious choice. Recently
a leading Christian (evangelical) figure in Australia said
all gays and lesbians should be burnt at the stake. If
you read my story on the site I explain why I started
questioning the Bible.
So I have to ask
where you get your authority to make bold statements
saying that “it is learned”. Even Exodus and Liberty
ministries wouldn’t agree with this.
I’m not sure what
authority Focus on the Family has on these issues either.
I respect some of their ideas in other areas, but I don’t
know their credentials in the areas of same sex
relationships.
The second point
I’d like to make is that you didn’t seem to read my emails
about the Bible. If the Bible has no authority, why quote
it at someone. Imagine if I started putting quotes from
the Koran (Quran) in my emails. How would you respond to
them? So I suppose before I accept the Bible as God’s
word I would have to know that it was from your version of
God. Next I would have to know that your version of God
was the only or the God. Most Christians have trouble
getting their head around the reality of that point.
Regarding your
close female friend. Well if you believed the Bible you
would realise that she was married to him. The sexual
union of two people is considered marriage, certainly from
a Biblical perspective. I can even give you the Bible
verses if you like. The marriage ceremonies practiced are
a recent addition to Western tradition and not Biblical
per se. So she was really doing the un-Biblical thing by
leaving him. If I was a Christian minister I would have
encouraged her to cement her union with him by getting
married.
I do understand
marriage, as I have been part of a committed relationship
for quite some time now.
I have included
the short topic on Hermaphrodites from the site. You
might like to comment on that too.
Hermaphrodites.
In my own mind, one of the greatest challenges to the
Christian interpretation of sexuality are hermaphrodites.
The subject is rather uncharted in Christian or secular
societies. Some would be aware of the recent publicity
regarding the practice of gender allocation. When a child
is born with the characteristics of both genders the
medical fraternity has recommended gender allocation. In
other words they, possibly with the parents, make a
decision to perform surgery to determine a specific
gender.
In the developing world this type of surgery has not been
performed and hermaphrodites live as relatively normal
people. The question I often ask to Christians is "Should
hermaphrodites marry a male or a female"? One of the
reasons I ask this question is because often evangelical
Christians state that the Bible has an answer to every
situation in life, because it is like a blueprint. In my
opinion this is a naive and ignorant statement. No
volume, regardless of the size, could ever contain the
answers to every condition and problem of humanity let
alone an ancient religious text.
Got thoughts?
So I hope you can
understand what I have pointed out here. If you can
understand the mind of an Agnostic you are doing very
well. Most Christians are not interested in listening.
All they do is preach, failing to listen. So I hope that
helps. If you read my previous emails, it might help you
to understand a little better where I am coming from.
Regards
Mike
Mike: Here is a little post script to
my previous email. On the subject of the nurture versus
nature debate on homosexuality: For any serious, objective
and honest discussion, it is important to weigh all the
evidence. Genetic science is moving forward all the time
and as a result new evidence comes to light regularly. If
we are going to be honestly informed we must allow ourselves
to be acquainted with all sides of the debate. If you only
allow yourself to read the fundamentalist Christian
perspective, you are going to come up short.
For example, if you went to university and
wrote an essay or thesis on the topic you would be given a
big fat fail for not reading and treating the debate more
widely. I have used the same idea with the creation –
evolution debate. The fact is that most Christians I know
would never read anything that was published on the
evolution side of the debate. They would only read the
“Answers in Genesis” literature and the bias towards secular
scientists written in their publications. If any argument,
idea or opinion is to have integrity, it needs to consider
the other side of the argument. Otherwise the opinion we
settle on will lack integrity and honesty.
Does that make sense?
I don’t have the answers, in fact I have the
questions. I am not so certain about what many ignorant
people are certain of.
Regards
Mike
Steph:
Here's that message I told you about.
G’day Steph
The first thing I
should say is that we should always be careful to parade
ourselves as authorities over areas we know very little
about. As a student myself I am aware of recent
scientific studies that support the idea that
homosexuality is something some are born with.
I have a problem
with presumptuousness and am suspicious, to say the least,
of someone who claims to have the low down on a subject as
complex as human sexuality, from reading a few books and
hearing a few sermons.
The topic of
homosexuality is one of about 30 key issues with me. If
you look at the topics I cover on the web site you will
see some of the others. Homosexuality comes under a
larger topic of discrimination. Unfortunately I have
witnessed first hand the atrocious treatment Christians
meet out to people who don’t match their own sexual
orientation, ethnic origin and religious choice. Recently
a leading Christian (evangelical) figure in Australia said
all gays and lesbians should be burnt at the stake. If
you read my story on the site I explain why I started
questioning the Bible.
So I have to ask
where you get your authority to make bold statements
saying that “it is learned”. Even Exodus and Liberty
ministries wouldn’t agree with this.
I’m not sure what
authority Focus on the Family has on these issues either.
I respect some of their ideas in other areas, but I don’t
know their credentials in the areas of same sex
relationships.
The second point
I’d like to make is that you didn’t seem to read my emails
about the Bible. If the Bible has no authority, why quote
it at someone. Imagine if I started putting quotes from
the Koran (Quaran) in my emails. How would you respond to
them? So I suppose before I accept the Bible as God’s
word I would have to know that it was from your version of
God. Next I would have to know that your version of God
was the only or the God. Most Christians have trouble
getting their head around the reality of that point.
Regarding your
close female friend. Well if you believed the Bible you
would realise that she was married to him. The sexual
union of two people is considered marriage, certainly from
a Biblical perspective. I can even give you the Bible
verses if you like. The marriage ceremonies practiced are
a recent addition to Western tradition and not Biblical
per se. So she was really doing the un-Biblical thing by
leaving him. If I was a Christian minister I would have
encouraged her to cement her union with him by getting
married.
I do understand
marriage, as I have been part of a committed relationship
for quite some time now.
I have included
the short topic on Hermaphrodites from the site. You
might like to comment on that too.
Hermaphrodites.
In my own mind, one of the greatest challenges to the
Christian interpretation of sexuality are hermaphrodites.
The subject is rather uncharted in Christian or secular
societies. Some would be aware of the recent publicity
regarding the practice of gender allocation. When a child
is born with the characteristics of both genders the
medical fraternity has recommended gender allocation. In
other words they, possibly with the parents, make a
decision to perform surgery to determine a specific
gender.
In the developing world this type of surgery has not been
performed and hermaphrodites live as relatively normal
people. The question I often ask to Christians is "Should
hermaphrodites marry a male or a female"? One of the
reasons I ask this question is because often evangelical
Christians state that the Bible has an answer to every
situation in life, because it is like a blueprint. In my
opinion this is a naive and ignorant statement. No volume
regardless of the size could ever contain the answers to
every condition and problem of humanity let alone an
ancient religious text.
Got thoughts?
So I hope you can
understand what I have pointed out here. If you can
understand the mind of an Agnostic you are doing very
well. Most Christians are not interested in listening.
All they do is preach, failing to listen. So I hope that
helps. If you read my previous emails, it might help you
to understand a little better where I am coming from.
Regards
MIke
G’day Steph
Here is a little post script to my previous email. On the
subject of the nurture versus nature debate on
homosexuality: For any serious, objective and honest
discussion, it is important to weigh all the evidence.
Genetic science is moving forward all the time and as a
result new evidence comes to light regularly. If we are
going to be honestly informed we must allow ourselves to
be acquainted with all sides of the debate. If you only
allow yourself to read the fundamentalist Christian
perspective, you are going to come up short.
For example, if you went to university and wrote an essay
or thesis on the topic you would be given a big fat fail
for not reading and treating the debate more widely. I
have used the same idea with the creation – evolution
debate. The fact is that most Christians I know would
never read anything that was published on the evolution
side of the debate. They would only read the “Answers in
Genesis” literature and the bias towards secular
scientists written in their publications. If any
argument, idea or opinion is to have integrity, it needs
to consider the other side of the argument. Otherwise the
opinion we settle on will lack integrity and honesty.
Does that make sense.
I
don’t have the answers, in fact I have the questions. I
am not so certain about what many ignorant people are
certain of.
Regards
Mike
G’day Steph
The author of this message is obviously confused.
The first statement in the address says ”
No one can say definitively what causes a person to be
homosexual.”
Then the first sentence of the third paragraph says
“On the other hand, I am certain that homosexuality does
not result from irresistible genetic influences, as some
would have us believe.”
The author says no one can “say definitively” and then
goes on to make a definitive statement of certainty.
I think that this person does not understand that
identical twins are not the same person. I think they
might be confusing the tri-unity of their God with some
sort of bi-unity of humanity. Even though identical
twins share the same DNA, they have different physical
traits determined by phenotypes. So in essence they are
not the same person.
You will find that different scientists say different
things, depending on their research and the bounds of
their research. I’m not sure if you’ve done any
academic study personally, but this is evident in
virtually any field of learning. If I can bring it
closer to home for you, you already know that doctrinal
statements in the Bible have numerous interpretations.
Different Biblical scholars come up with different
conclusions. The wise scholar will never be absolute
and definitive. That’s why I thought that piece started
off very well. Unfortunately a subsequent statement
demonstrated a glaring inconsistency, not apparent to
the author.
The study of twins is interesting with regard to
homosexuality, but is not definitive. I’m sure a
genetic biologist would tell you this.
Anyway, this little article (while not about
homosexuality) might help clarify the differences
between identical twins.
I notice you have still not responded to my previous
email questions. If you find the task a bit daunting,
that’s fine. I know it can all be a bit overwhelming.
It took me many years to come to terms with some of
those questions and ideas.
Regards
Mike
G’day Steph
I’m not sure why you haven’t replied. Do you remember
that I mentioned that most Christians don’t continue to
discuss matters on my site for one reason or another.
I
have found that in many topics that Christians discuss
they have many inconsistencies and contradictions.
I’m not sure you answered my questions regarding the
version of salvation you ascribe to. There are many
hundreds of versions, all claiming that theirs is the
Biblical way.
I
don’t think you got to talk about Strobel’s poor attempt
at defending the faith either.
Lastly, the attempts of people who know little or nothing
about genetics and human nature don’t really have a right
to comment so loosely on matters regarding homosexuality.
Sexual orientation is not a disease and as such can’t be
cured. One person likens it to dying someone’s hair. It
works for a while until the real colour begins growing
again. If you know any ex-homosexuals that claim they
have no more desire for their same sex, I would be
interested in knowing what they have to say. However, the
Christians I know do not make these sort of claims.
Instead they say the feelings are still there but they
choose to practice heterosexual behaviour instead.
Anyway, it’s a pity you resigned from the discussion
without a goodbye. However, my experience of Christians
in discussions usually reverts to either rude emails or
just pretending not to hear another side. Unfortunately
the big questions rarely, if ever, get answered. Pity
really, because I believe the Apostle Paul (I think) said,
always be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies
within you (my paraphrase).
Anyway, I hope the short discussion we had lays a
foundation of enquiry and searching. Just remember, I do
not claim to know what many ignorant people are certain
of.
Regards
Mike
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