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Ecclesian's response to the discussion on the Bible
Ecclesian:
Most Christians
would see the Bible as central. After all, doesn't all we know about
this God of Israel and the Messiah Yeshua come from the Bible? So, what
if we found out that the Bible was faulty or that bits of it were inaccurate?
This is the big question. But first we need to understand some important
things - I will try to keep this as simple as possible - that different people
believe different things about life, what we call our world view, and this of
course impacts how we understand what truth is. If the Bible is true,
then what do we mean by this? We in the western world usually see truth
as something we can see, measure and understand with our minds, which is based
upon science. But there are other ways of knowing - our emotions, our
instincts, our spiritual or moral sense or our imagination. We humans
have two realities that we live in, the objective physical world all
around us and the subjective internal world of our perceptions and
feelings. The problem is that our minds can play tricks on us. This
has always bothered me. For example - if I see things which aren't
there, does it mean that I'm insane? Is this spiritual experience, this
vision of God, this feeling as I pray, is it really from God or am I deluded?
This then leads to - what if those people who say they saw God in the Bible,
what if they were deluded? The problem is that would make an awful lot
of people nuts! Common sense would tell us that just because someone
says they believe something to be true, that it doesn't mean that it is true.
But if a billion people say that they have had spiritual experiences,
then it is likely that they are experiencing something real. So, I
reject the materialist understanding of the world - that we are nothing but
matter that has managed to become self aware. The very fact of our self
awareness means that there exists this thing called mind, something which
isn't physical, but is spiritual. Most people on the planet would agree with me that this is our common experience.
So - back to the
Bible. A whole bunch of people had experiences of "something"
and they called that something God (Yahweh Elohim Jesus etc. etc.). I
cannot deny their experiences because they are still experiencing them and
so am I! Something or someone is definitely "out there" and
trying to get our attention. The fact that scientists can't seem to
capture this something and measure it, does not exclude the reality of it.
Just because I can't measure everything I experience, doesn't mean that my
experiences are invalid. I will not go down the path of those kinds of
assumptions. A long time ago, some of those people wrote down some of
the things they experienced - here is where it gets interesting. For the
ancient Israelite tribes, their "history" was their shared
experience, not just the objective "scientific" stuff of the
physical world around them, but also that internal reality where spiritual
things happen. They tried to write it down, but didn't always understand
what it was or what was happening to them and they also made mistakes.
So what we get is their second hand reports. This is enough for some to
just discount the whole thing as unreliable, but not me. You see, it is
important to put ourselves into their shoes spiritually speaking.
Something happened to this bloke called Moshe (Moses) and he descended from a
mountain with a whole legal framework. The Israelites had just witnessed
Egypt destroyed by a huge cataclysm which had enabled them to leave the
Nile valley - it did something to their collective conscience. Likewise,
a bunch of Jews met a rabbi named Yeshua. He was an extraordinary man
with great insight, courage and moral strength. They saw something
divine in him. Then they saw him die, willingly so, rather than strike
out at his enemies. He loved his enemies enough to forgive them even as
they tortured him. Then something else happened that science cannot
explain and that history does not reveal. People claimed that he was
alive again. What really happened? Again we get second
hand reports, but there is no doubt that a phenomenon was taking place within
the embryonic Messianic community afterwards.
The point I am
trying to make is that while the Bible has inconsistencies and problems, and
despite being written by people, who can often be mistaken or stupid or
ignorant or all of these things together, the Bible is what it is and what we
have as a record of other peoples experiences of this something called God.
As such I can only seek within myself for that same something and see if that
something bears witness to the experiences of those others. As I said,
it is difficult to believe that a billion people can all be wrong. Now
I'm not saying that we should throw our minds away, that we shouldn't do
historical and scientific research, I'm just saying that it isn't enough if we
are to find truth. Of course it is a complex thing. A lot of
people have used the Bible and religion and God to do some really evil things.
People today are still mistaken, stupid and ignorant. But strip all of
the crap away and get to the heart of it the something is still there looking
back out at us. That is all I think I need to know in the end.
Ecclesian
Mike: Thanks Ecclessian for a well thought out response.
There is one thing I would like to challenge you on. You
made a statement "But if a billion people say that they have had spiritual experiences,
then it is likely that they are experiencing something real" (Ecclesian).
No doubt millions of people say they have spiritual experiences. So do
I! But my experience although powerful at times and somewhat hard to
describe is difficult to place in the specific realm of religion, God or
other. I don't think I am wrong in saying that all religious people say
they experience some form of spiritual experience. But the question
remains, is it fair to attribute that experience to God? Maybe it is, but
maybe it isn't.
I don't believe it is wise to say that just because a
religious person, of whatever persuasion, experiences something it automatically
ratifies (authenticates or makes real) their religion. Muslim suicide
bombers also experience significant spiritual experiences contemplating their
destructive plans as do paedophiles, serial killers and the like. Is it
fair to say that their experiences make their peculiar beliefs justifiable?
Read more here on Encounters with God.
I find it interesting that people's spirituality can justify
the crap in the Bible. On the other hand some are able to reject it.
Unfortunately spirituality and spiritual experiences are so different and lead
to such different outcomes it becomes virtually impossible to determine if they
are authentic God given experiences.
As a church going person I used to be told that the Bible was
the benchmark and measure of my spiritual experiences and revelations.
However the Bible is so topsy turvy it becomes a benchmark where anything and
everything can be justified. Let's face it even Charles Manson justified
his actions from his spiritual experiences and the Bible.
Ecclesian:
G'day
Mike - just a few other bits to add. 10/12/2005.
Here are a few things to think about. People like to quote various
verses from the Bible as "authority" for their moral codes and ideas
about God. For example - the same Bible that says, do not steal, also
gives instructions to the Israelites on how to divide war booty among the
soldiers. The same Bible that condemns homosexuality (both old and new
testaments) also upholds the validity of slavery. The point I'm making is
that the "literalist fundamentalist" is no such thing because they
actually pick and choose the bits they like in the Bible and drop those bits
that they don't like. The full weight of Biblical authority is upheld for
certain things - such as tithing or moral codes or certain doctrines, but
so much of the Bible - what it actually says has been ignored.
If we accept some of the teachings of Paul (Sh'aul of Tarsus) then why is
it that we reject other teachings? For example, Paul demanded that women
were not to speak in the congregation, they were to have long hair or head
coverings, yet so many Christians who claim to be Bible believing, make
exceptions for these kinds of rules. Grace and cultural differences are
usually the reasoning behind dropping some outmoded traditions. But who
decides what is an outmoded tradition and what is an absolute and unchangeable
command? Paul himself saw the whole head covering thing as compulsory!
Yet, how many conservative Christian ladies in a post feminist age, come to
church with no hat and with short hair?! Or wearing slacks, or who lead
worship from the front etc. There is a kind of hypocrisy here. For
example, if I were to question the sexual culture of conservative Christianity,
I might be accused of disobeying the plain teaching of scripture (which would be
then quoted at me in order to sway me to obey). But what if I reply with
scriptures of my own - old testament scriptures that justify adding female
war captives to my harem, or Paul telling slaves to be content with their state
of slavery? What if I point out that Jesus himself was accused by some of
being a drunkard and a companion of prostitutes and "sinners"?
This whole issue is like the proverbial Emperors new clothes - a con job, an
embarrassing self deception which even a simple person can see if they are
allowed to look. The Bible is full of so many contradictions, and it is in
these contradictory areas that most people seem to be arguing their points.
Jesus talked about this kind of thing when he attacked the legalism of the
religious establishment of his day. His emphasis was upon radical
compassion and self sacrifice for others. Jesus set up the counter culture
of his day! Why then are we so preoccupied with religious culture
and conformity?
Mike:
Thanks Ecclesian. We are preoccupied with religious culture and conformity
because we are creatures of habit and we continue the conformity which is in a
sense passed on to us. I suppose the Bible even tells a story of Jewish
religious conformity. Conformity is not wrong per se, but when we stop
being just and loving we have to question the things we are conforming
to. You raise
some good points which the literalists and some less literalists will have great
difficulty coming to terms with. There answer is usually just to ignore
these things and answer them with a childish response. I will add some
more to my response soon as there is so much more to discuss.
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